I agree with the grind thread

[Shadow_Avenger]

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Yup, you're biased. Pure PvP is one of the most popular gaming markets out there, with counterstrike, CS:Source, Day of Defeat and various other games being huge player bases. It may be shallow in the sense of an RPG, but it is rich with tactics, strategy and skill and is a rewarding thing to play for those who enjoy it.

CS, unreal etc are totally different PvP game types. You have to use wits, use the enviroment and most importantly sound to hear the other players, they require cat and mouse tactics.

GW is nothing like this in PvP. The PvP in GW plays out more like RTS that FPS.
Thankfully GW is not 1 on 1 PvP as that would be totally brainless.
Even tactics in GW are not that brain stormingly difficult.
If they have healer kill healer else kill caster, last kill fighters.
Tanks fight Tanks so others can kill the more dangerous or useful members of oppossing team. Beleive it or not PvP in GW actually plays alot like PvE group missions.....
To win you need to beable to work as a team and communicate with each other quickly. I suspect true PvP players, play in guilds and will always use voice over net Tec for any tourny play.

[Adaria]

I've been reading through alot of these posts and it seems to be alot of whining...

There could be a solution to it, but it would change the PvP side of things, say, for every amount of matches won in a row, your team could unlock a new skill or rune, it'd be random.

But still I think people would complain, and personally, having everything unlocked, would just mean you had the power, but not the knowledge, nor the skill on how to properly use it. So, 'grinding' is useful to learn how skills work and which work best together, because some PvP matches I've seen only last about a minute or a little more, so it doesn't give a truly good timeframe to see how well your skills will really work in a drawn out fight.

But anyway this is just my opinion on the deal...

[Epinephrine]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

CS, unreal etc are totally different PvP game types. You have to use wits, use the enviroment and most importantly sound to hear the other players, they require cat and mouse tactics.

GW is nothing like this in PvP. The PvP in GW plays out more like RTS that FPS.
Thankfully GW is not 1 on 1 PvP as that would be totally brainless.
Even tactics in GW are not that brain stormingly difficult.
If they have healer kill healer else kill caster, last kill fighters.
Tanks fight Tanks so others can kill the more dangerous or useful members of oppossing team. Beleive it or not PvP in GW actually plays alot like PvE group missions.....
To win you need to beable to work as a team and communicate with each other quickly. I suspect true PvP players, play in guilds and will always use voice over net Tec for any tourny play.

You've contrasted them, but also highlit similarities. For example:
Thankfully DoD and CS aren't 1 on 1, that would be totally brainless.
To win in either GW or CS/DoD requires communicating efficiently.
Both styles require planning beforehand, in DoD the weapons you bring along and how you use them is based on the environment and the skills of the team, and how to combine them - here it is the skills you bring, what roles you play, who watches whom - same ideas.
Both styles have simple tactics - Sniper, take out snipers and MGs (Take out the team support and nuker). Use nades on imobile or blocked opponents (AoE?). Use positioning (suppression fire to pin them while you flank=positional blocking while AoE is set off... It's very similar when you get down to it.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm trying to show why pure PvP players like PvP, and want it to be fun and fair.

Oh, and Adaria, if you are just going to gripe about "whining" you don't have to comment or read them, it contributes nothing.

[goku19123]

Sausaletus Rex, another excellent post - those are seriously, very good ideas.

[ssnider75]

I have read every post in this thread. After a careful review, I think the answer is to make it so no skills are "elite". Every skill can be bought or won through completing a mission. This eliminates having to find select bosses over and over again.

As for the runes, maybe create a way to craft them using the crafting materials as opposed to finding them in something and trying to use an expert salvage kit and hope it works. It could be profession specific so you could craft the warrior runes with iron ingots (a lot of them!), ranger runes with wood planks, and so on.

By doing this, there is still incentive to play PvE to get the materials needed or complete the quest to get the skill or rune. On the PvP side, it is not forcing you to find that one boss and use a signet of capture and maybe get it. You would be finding the crafting the materials anyways for the runes.

[Loviatar]

why not have 2 different pvp setups?
1 everything unlocked for trying out builds or a quick pvp action but no credit or record of the match is made

2 the unlock by pve which everybody can do and records for ladders and fame are kept

[Rotgut The Unholy]

You know that if you play a good few hours a night you can get to 20 and ascend in about 1 weekstime, right?

[EinValentine]

Even from a purely PvE perspective the game turns into a horrid grind at the endgame. I had heard when I started (poor naive soul that I was) that you could keep gaining skillpoints infinitely, and since they seemed to be rolling in rapidly with missions and levels I actually used them. Little did I know what a wretched chore gaining them later becomes. I used them at trainers, I used them to capture Elites. This in addition to doing every quest I could find in every town on the map.

And then I ran out. And, at level 20 with every storyline mission finished, that meant that my options for gaining more skillpoints were meagre. I could grind away on Perdition's Rock with just me and the henchie healer, which could bring in a skill point after a rather protracted period of utter boredom. Or I could try to find a team to grind away in the Fissure or Underworld (assuming we had the Favor) which was usually about as much fun as pulling teeth. After the 50th time some idiot with the reading comprehension of a slug gets your entire team killed down there, let alone the nuisance factor of just getting a party to begin with, you start losing patience.

I finally got so annoyed I just deleted the character from spite and started over.

Gaining skill points in the endgame needs to be less of a chore.

[Guardian Legend]

haven't read all the posts, but wanted to say that i agree completely with Blackace. I think the power grind should be altered. Players who grind a lot should be given an advantage in PVP, I think, but it should be very slight. Currently the advantage is very significant to the point that the competitive skill-based aspect of GW is weakened significantly.

[QTFsniper]

PVE players can play with PVP characters. If everything was unlocked automatically for PvP only characters, it would be unfair to the PvE characters. Giving equal terms is the way to go.

Originally Posted by Adaria

So, 'grinding' is useful to learn how skills work and which work best together, because some PvP matches I've seen only last about a minute or a little more, so it doesn't give a truly good timeframe to see how well your skills will really work in a drawn out fight.

But anyway this is just my opinion on the deal...

PvE does not and will not teach you how every skill in the game works. The same can be said about some skills that do not work in PvP. That kind of statement is weak justification for the basis of forced grinding.

[spiritofcat]

Originally Posted by QTFsniper

PVE players can play with PVP characters. If everything was unlocked automatically for PvP only characters, it would be unfair to the PvE characters. Giving equal terms is the way to go.

So let PvE characters have an Unlock All button that only applies to PvP. So in a PvP outpost they can choose from all skills, but in PvE they only have what they've earnt.

[Madjik]

Originally Posted by spiritofcat

So let PvE characters have an Unlock All button that only applies to PvP. So in a PvP outpost they can choose from all skills, but in PvE they only have what they've earnt.

This idea was already suggested and severly rejected. PvE players want some kind of reward for playing the game like they do and they tend to look at the unlocking of PvP based skills and items as that reward.

EDIT:: goku19123 has started a suggestion thread here on this issue a few days ago. If you think you got a prime idea you should post there, seems like he's taking a bunch of ideas and merging them into one great big wonderful one. Note that thread should not be used to argue for your point at his request, leave that here.

[NiknudStunod]

After reading all the threads here I am going to make a quick summary. There are 3 types of players that are playing guild wars right now.

You have your dedicated pve players. These people think that the game content is the reason to play. The don't care if there guild is ranked 1000 or first because all they want to do is enjoy the story and explore the game at there pace.


You have your dedicated pvper. These people want nothing to do with the "grind". They are here for the thrill of going against other players. The further they stay away from pve the happier they are.

Finally you have your power gamers. It is very hard to describe this group without turning this post into a flame. These people go through these missions, quests and areas continuely to get unlockables for the power they get over other players. They like the grind because they know a lot of the players will not do it in order to compete so that gives them the edges in battles.

I can say with all honesty I came here from WoW to get away from this sort of thing. The way they advertised this game all through BWE was skill over time spent and to me that was enough to close my WoW account and not look back. I have some faith in a group of devs who helped create some wonderful games for blizzard back before they sold there soul to vivendi. So there is still a chance for skill to take a larger role then time spent.

[Phaedrus]

Most of the hardcore PvP players spent their time getting exactly what they needed for their builds so they could get to business. If they haven't done that, they're doing a disservice to themselves.

Guild Wars has been out less than a month and my RP character is only missing one of the skills I use. I've finished the missions, found/assmebled a weapon I think will last me quite a long time, crafted my pretty-oh-so-pretty armor, and begun with the PvP. I wouldn't call the process agonizing. My map isn't completely cleared yet, but I do have all the map points uncovered. That said, I support the current system.

Everyone wants PvP to give more reward. Everyone wants to be able to build their elite PvP character without having to do any of the busywork. Everyone wants their elite skills handed to them and made non-elite so they can stack six of them.

I doubt it will change, if only because PvE a large part of what GW is peddling to us. Do I think it should change? No. If it's really that much of a burden, why don't guilds find people who like that part of the game, pay them to unlock all their abilities, then buy back the account when that person is done? Everyone makes playing Guild Wars sound like so much drudgery, but it's not. Capping a skill is not that difficult. Unlocking items...not that difficult. God forbid the developers and game designers put failsafes in that might prevent people who have had months to playtest and prepare themselves to rule PvP from completely owning everyone right out of the gate. Equality is a bitch, isn't it? It especially sucks the way those who never played PWE or BWE might unlock awesome items before a guy who really knows his shit.

So it gives you a challenge. It's not like other games where you have to take some wood and some iron, synthesize a hatchet, go into the woods with that hatchet (which might break, so you should take and synth several), chop a special tree, synthesize the wood into planks, find some feathers, find some stones, synthesize the feathers into fletching and the stones into arrowheads, then synthesize the arrowheads, fletching, and planks into arrows...all before you can freaking fire your bow.

If you need an elite skill, you will probably cap it around level 20. If you ascended an RP character, that's not too terribly far out of your way. If you need a rune, well...either start paying for unidentified salvage items/runes or maybe help people through back missions for those things. There's always a few per mission. It adds up. You can make it painless, just try.

[ ]

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Most of the hardcore PvP players spent their time getting exactly what they needed for their builds so they could get to business. If they haven't done that, they're doing a disservice to themselves.

Guild Wars has been out less than a month and my RP character is only missing one of the skills I use. I've finished the missions, found/assmebled a weapon I think will last me quite a long time, crafted my pretty-oh-so-pretty armor, and begun with the PvP. I wouldn't call the process agonizing. My map isn't completely cleared yet, but I do have all the map points uncovered. That said, I support the current system.

Then start this process over again 2 more times! You have to realise, we need to unlock more than skill for 2-3 builds. Hardcore PvPers need to be able to change builds very often. In some battle having unlocked just that one skill can make all the difference (just look at the Fianna vs KOR last BWE). That also includes unlocking several different professions to be able to change both primary and secondary professions on command. It means being able to find that one skill in your list that might change the tide when playing that guild for the second time.

[Phaedrus]

Originally Posted by Linkie

Then start this process over again 2 more times! You have to realise, we need to unlock more than skill for 2-3 builds. Hardcore PvPers need to be able to change builds very often. In some battle having unlocked just that one skill can make all the difference (just look at the Fianna vs KOR last BWE). That also includes unlocking several different professions to be able to change both primary and secondary professions on command. It means being able to find that one skill in your list that might change the tide when playing that guild for the second time.

Forgive me for assuming, but I can be fairly confident most hardcore PvP players are in guilds, yes? Why aren't these guilds farming their own builds? Without a guild and no assistance from my friends whom I later addicted, I unlocked most monk and ranger skills, with a respectable number of mesmer skills on ths side. If this is truly the case, why aren't guilds strategically building primary/secondaries and grouping them together for quests and missions so they can maximize their unlocking? In this way you could unlock almost all the skills in the game inside a month. I daresay *faster* since you'll have quality players assisting you every step of the way.

If it's about saving time, why aren't people playing smarter instead of harder?

[ ]

[Epinephrine]

Originally Posted by QTFsniper

PVE players can play with PVP characters. If everything was unlocked automatically for PvP only characters, it would be unfair to the PvE characters. Giving equal terms is the way to go.

How is it "Unfair"? That they don't have an edge? It's "Skill, not time spent". Anyone could make a character for PvP still, so there's no "unfairness", and PvE is only for PvE characters, so you'd neveer need to meet a PvPer. PvE can then be seen as a fun place to learn skills and teamwork. There could be PvE (RP) only arenas, and the PvP area would then be the ladder area. Makes more sense to have the ladder area the one in which all people are on even footing.

[sama]

Originally Posted by Rotgut The Unholy

You know that if you play a good few hours a night you can get to 20 and ascend in about 1 weekstime, right?

hmm, i reached ascention in 3 days. but of course, that's just the tip of the pve iceberg of grind...

[NiknudStunod]

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Most of the hardcore PvP players spent their time getting exactly what they needed for their builds so they could get to business. If they haven't done that, they're doing a disservice to themselves.

Guild Wars has been out less than a month and my RP character is only missing one of the skills I use. I've finished the missions, found/assmebled a weapon I think will last me quite a long time, crafted my pretty-oh-so-pretty armor, and begun with the PvP. I wouldn't call the process agonizing. My map isn't completely cleared yet, but I do have all the map points uncovered. That said, I support the current system.

Everyone wants PvP to give more reward. Everyone wants to be able to build their elite PvP character without having to do any of the busywork. Everyone wants their elite skills handed to them and made non-elite so they can stack six of them.

I doubt it will change, if only because PvE a large part of what GW is peddling to us. Do I think it should change? No. If it's really that much of a burden, why don't guilds find people who like that part of the game, pay them to unlock all their abilities, then buy back the account when that person is done? Everyone makes playing Guild Wars sound like so much drudgery, but it's not. Capping a skill is not that difficult. Unlocking items...not that difficult. God forbid the developers and game designers put failsafes in that might prevent people who have had months to playtest and prepare themselves to rule PvP from completely owning everyone right out of the gate. Equality is a bitch, isn't it? It especially sucks the way those who never played PWE or BWE might unlock awesome items before a guy who really knows his shit.

So it gives you a challenge. It's not like other games where you have to take some wood and some iron, synthesize a hatchet, go into the woods with that hatchet (which might break, so you should take and synth several), chop a special tree, synthesize the wood into planks, find some feathers, find some stones, synthesize the feathers into fletching and the stones into arrowheads, then synthesize the arrowheads, fletching, and planks into arrows...all before you can freaking fire your bow.

If you need an elite skill, you will probably cap it around level 20. If you ascended an RP character, that's not too terribly far out of your way. If you need a rune, well...either start paying for unidentified salvage items/runes or maybe help people through back missions for those things. There's always a few per mission. It adds up. You can make it painless, just try.

[ ]

You do realize you can not stack elite skills right? You can use only 1 at a time unless they have changed it since bwe.

My beef is I have been through the game and refuse to do it again. I have unlocked the majority of the skills for the war/mes build but in order to play any other class I need to run through the game several times to get all the skills. The only way to put everyone on equal footing is to treat each aspect of the game like a different game. PvP has almost nothing to do with pve. The only thing it does effect is passage to the underworld. PvE on the other hand completely effects the game. You can not effectively pvp unless you have been through the game atleast once.

The reason a lot of the bwe players are so unhappy is all through the beta weekends we were told that skill will be more important then time played. right now it is time played over skill.